The 4 extra delegates are a smoke screen

The flip side to, "Why didn't Obama's team just give Clinton the 4 extra delegates?" is, "Why is Clinton's camp so hard over something that won't make the slightest difference in the race?"  Four delegates - at 50% voting power no less - is trivial.  That's not the real argument though, and compromising about that won't stop the complaining.  Why are those two votes so important?  It's all about the delegate slate.

What was Ickes constant debating point during the arguments?  Fair reflection.  Over and over again it was stated that it wouldn't be consistent with fair reflection to assign the undecided delegates to Obama.  If, as the other committee member stated, it was effectively moot, that undecided delegates would effectively become Obama delegates, why fight that so hard?  There are two reasons for this, one obvious and one a little conspiratorial.  

Keeping the delegates as undecided creates more work for Obama.  Even if all 55 of them went to Obama, he'd have to woo them and get them to go on the record as supporting him.  That would mean that instead of this being wrapped up next week, it could take until July for him to reach the magic number.  Moreover, there were strong rumors out of the first selection meeting that Clinton managed to stack the uncommitted delegate slate with her own supporters.  Research on Demcomwatch has gone a way towards reducing that fear, but it definitely exists in the Obama camp.  Why else were there the frequent questions about changing the delegate slate if they wanted to?

OK, there were issues with the delegates.  Why not just make the count 73 Clinton, 55 Obama and not worry about the extra 4 delegates?  There actually is a reason to do so.  One of the Clinton camp's last remaining arguments is the popular vote one.  Never mind that nowhere in any rule does the popular vote count for anything, and yes it's stupid to mix caucus states, closed primary states and open primary states into a bowl and pretend that they're equal.  It's just a way of talking about the nomination process that makes your case look better.  In order to Clinton to have a lead in this count that includes the caucus states, Michigan has to be included, giving 0 votes to Obama.  Changing the delegate count sends the message that the Democratic Party does not consider Michigan to be a valid contest, and according to Chuck Todd, people are "cautioned" not to count Michigan's popular vote totals.

That's what this fight is about.  It's about extending the primary season and raising legitimacy questions about the nominee.  No one is going to accept an argument about that though, so they have to make the case about losing four delegates.  If I'm Obama, I let the case be made for a few days and if it keeps going after he gets to 2119, publicly offer to have two of his superdelegates vote for her.  I don't care much about two votes and I don't think Obama does either.  What we do care about is having the nomination process be over so we can focus on McCain.  That's what this argument is really about.



Display:


Re: The 4 extra delegates are a smoke screen (2.00 / 2)

I think the idea of having two of his Supers vote for her is a great idea... takes the teeth completely out of the argument...  

For kicks you could make the two be Kerry and Kennedy since she won Massachusetts....

It won't be the end of the arguing by the way.... at this point I think people are so used to arguing, they worry that without it, they will have nothing to say....


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:17:13 AM EST

Re: The 4 extra delegates are a smoke screen (2.00 / 2)

No no. They'd complain about how condescending it was that he gave Clinton 2 supers.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:29:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 4 extra delegates are a smoke screen (none / 0)

You are right.

If they do that I will not only complaint that it was condescending but that it was also misoygnistic.

Mojo for you.


by HillsMyGirl on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:28:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 4 extra delegates are a smoke screen (2.00 / 1)

Yer silly.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:29:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The 4 extra delegates are a smoke screen (none / 0)

Sadly, this is almost certainly right.


by TL on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:28:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

As it wasn't a real contest there is no (2.00 / 1)

way to show a "fair reflection" so that RBC did what the represetatives of the people of those states asked. It wasn't up to Obama. He didn't get what he asked for either.

BTW:
John McCain voted to filibuster the minimum wage. John McCain doesn't support the troops. John McCain agrees with Bush's Iraq strategy. John McCain wants to overturn Roe v. Wade. John McCain supports NAFTA. John McCain is a puppet for the lobbyists. John McCain is fine letting our troops rot in Iraq for 100 years.


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:28:41 AM EST

why it is not over (2.00 / 1)

--the unfairness of Michigan gives Clinton more ammunition to take this to the credentials committee.  It was not ok to award Obama any delegates that Clinton legitimately won.  The battle continues.

--Obama has more work to do.  He would have if the RBC didn't give him what he wanted.  But now he has the stain of illegitimacy that many will pick up on.  I know I view this as strong-armed Obama tactics, rooted definately in the money he has spread around to woo his delegates.

--His resignation from the church was I am sure ordered by his superdelegate supporters.  Too late too little, especiallly for his failure to condemn the recent remarks from that church.  McCain had to do it for him.

--It will still be a long summer.  There is still too much unknown about Obama.  Now that he can't hide behind Clinton, we'll see if he can handle the stuff that is coming....much of it quite damaging.  His unfavorability ratings are now 52%.

--He still will lose the popular vote, which gives him the unique honor of being the first person the democrats have nominated who DID NOT win the popular vote. He won the delegates, not the people.


by 4justice on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:29:34 AM EST

Re: why it is not over (none / 0)

"He still will lose the popular vote, which gives him the unique honor of being the first person the democrats have nominated who DID NOT win the popular vote."

Bill Clinton from 1992 would like to have a word with you.


by Monolithic on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:36:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why it is not over (2.00 / 2)

BC did get the popular vote in the Democratic Primaries in 1992

Popular vote

BC             10,482,41
Jerry Brown     4,071,232
Paul Tsongas    3,656,010

and BC went on to win the popular vote in the GE, in a three way race.

please do a little research before trying to smear BC in order to make others look better


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:55:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why it is not over (none / 0)

It's not over because our goal is to win the general election.  So yes, there still is work to be done.

But as for the primary? Yes, it's over.  It's been over since February, actually, as many of us realized.

Hillary can take her "popular vote victory" and $4 and get a coffee at Starbucks, but even she will soon be conceding that BHO won the primary by the rules that everyone agreed to.

The question is, will you still support a woman who supports someone as terrible as Obama?


by NeverNude on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:36:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why it is not over (none / 0)

Please enjoy some imaginary mojo.  

This is shaping up to be the quote of the day:

The question is, will you still support a woman who supports someone as terrible as Obama?


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:47:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why it is not over (none / 0)

We can count on you in November, though, correct?


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:36:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

No or maybe so (2.00 / 1)

Look I am a staunch Hillary supporter.

I believe in a woman's right to choose,
I believe in health care for children,
I do not want more Alitos on the SC,
I want our troops out of Iraq,
I want the equal pay act passed and enforced,

On all of these issues Barack Obama agrees with me but John McCain disagrees with me.

So I think I'll listen to Alegre and vote McCAin.


by HillsMyGirl on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:30:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No or maybe so (none / 0)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

TROLL ALERT!!  THERE IS A TROLL IN THE DUNGEON!!


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:32:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No or maybe so (none / 0)

Hey this site is about ELECTING DEMOCRATS.

Do you see anything in that comment that goes against that principle?

Smile, laugh, joke, enjoy, I'm not your enemy.


by HillsMyGirl on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:33:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: No or maybe so (none / 0)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

TROLL


by colebiancardi on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:34:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why it is not over (none / 0)

I really am tired of the phrase "there is too much still unknown about Obama". My counter is if that's true then there is TOO much known about Clinton and most of it is unfavorable


by utopia on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:45:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why it is not over (none / 0)

It was not ok to award Obama any delegates that Clinton legitimately won.  The battle continues.

Don't get lost in the principle here - 4 delegates, halved, won't make a difference. So trying to use that flimsy excuse as a reason to "fight on" it bullshit.

His resignation from the church was I am sure ordered by his superdelegate supporters.  Too late too little, especiallly for his failure to condemn the recent remarks from that church.

Nobody is going to 'order' Obama to leave his church. He did so in order to avoid future incidences that are blown way out of proportion. And by the way, Obama DID speak out against those statements - you should learn to pay closers attention to these things.

There is still too much unknown about Obama.  Now that he can't hide behind Clinton, we'll see if he can handle the stuff that is coming....much of it quite damaging.  His unfavorability ratings are now 52%.

LOL what does that even mean: 'hiding behind Clinton'??? And did you SERIOUSLY just being up unfavorability ratings? I mean, really? Hillary has the highest unfavorables of any presidential candidate in history!

He still will lose the popular vote, which gives him the unique honor of being the first person the democrats have nominated who DID NOT win the popular vote. He won the delegates, not the people.

Yes, IF YOU GIVE HILLARY A 1-STATE HANDICAP, she has the popular vote. Now that's something to brag about, you must feel so proud! :p  Also, if you let her start 3 blocks ahead in a foot race, she beats Obama hands down!

But about that whole popular vote 'record' you like to brag about (talk about tainted), how's this for a record: Barack Obama has received more votes PER STATE than any candidate in history, including yours. Why? Because he did not participate in MI, so his vote total represents the totals of only 49 states. Hillary DID compete in MI, so her vote total represents the totals of 50. Per state, she loses. Deal with it.


by Rhizomorph on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:35:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: why it is not over (none / 0)

Unfairness of MI? Clinton should have gotten ZERO. Why is that hard to understand?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:54:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

These 4 delegates... (2.00 / 1)

could cost Obama and the democrats the election!!!

it is the POINT of the 4 delegates, not the number.


by nikkid on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:03:31 PM EST


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