Clinton Supporters vs. Clinton "Supporters"

[Cross-posted at DailyKos.]

There's a difference, you know.

Supporters love their candidate.  They educate themselves about their candidate.  They learn about their candidate's policies, positions, background, voting record.  They work to get their candidate elected -- by voting, by calling, by donating money, by slapping that sign in the front yard and that sticker on their car.

"Supporters", on the other hand, are a little different.  They don't know much about their candidate, but that's because their candidate is irrelevant to them.

They hate the other candidate.  That's their motivation.  They trash the other candidate -- on TV, on blogs, at "rallies" and "protests."  They seek confrontation and do not care if their behavior reflects badly on their candidate, because they don't really care about their candidate to begin with.

On Saturday, at the DNC's Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting to determine the fate of Florida and Michigan's delegates, a group of Clinton "supporters" reportedly caused quite a commotion.

They chanted.  They shouted.  They booed.

They also embraced the crazed rantings of Larry Sinclair, who describes himself on his website as follows:

Larry has been threaten with death as well has many other things since coming forward with his sexual and drug use encounters with Presidential Candidate Barack Obama.  Obama and his Chief Media advisor David Axelrod have engaged in a huge internet attack against Larry in hopes of keeping the truth about Obama from making out into the Main Stream Media which would make Obama have to respond and explain his lies.  That is something Obama does not wish to do.

Got that?  This man is alleging a drug-induced gay love affair with Obama.  I didn't believe it the first time I heard it -- before he failed a polygraph test.

This man has been completely discredited and deserves no attention from the media and certainly not from Clinton supporters.  

Clinton "supporters," on the other hand, have embraced his vile lies in a desperate attempt to smear Obama.  

They do not care about Clinton; they care about destroying Obama.  They are not supporters.  They are "supporters."

It is easy, sometimes, to confuse supporters and "supporters."  After all, they look alike.  Sometimes they even sound alike.  How is one to know the difference between the woman holding the Clinton sign (who supports Clinton) and the woman holding the Clinton sign (who opposes the other candidate at all costs)?

On the internet, it is even harder to know the difference.  An anonymous blogger with an anonymous name posts a comment about opposing Obama.  Is this person sincere?  Or is this person a Republican troll trying to create disharmony among Democrats?

What is important to remember, however, is that a candidate's support does not come primarily from "supporters."  These people lack the dedication and endurance that real supporters have.  They jump on a bandwagon when it's convenient, and they will fall off just as easily.

Meanwhile, they manage to discredit the real supporters and the candidate they claim to support.  

They are an embarrassment.  They are a shame.  

Now, let me make my guarantee to you:

I am a Clinton supporter.  That means I prefer Clinton.  I prefer her policies and positions.  I admire her strength.  I think she, more than any other candidate in the race, belongs in the White House next January.

But...

I denounce "supporters."  I do not believe it is necessary or effective to smear Obama.  I do not believe that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  I do not believe that Obama is my enemy, and I certainly do not believe that Larry Sinclair is in any way helpful to the cause of electing Clinton.

I am appalled by those "supporters" who say they will actively support McCain in November.  It's one thing to dislike the nominee and to write in a preferred candidate or vote for a third-party candidate whom you believe more closely represents your values.

But to work for the candidate who in no way shares your values -- and to do so out of spite and bitterness -- is a mistake.  It shows a lack of conviction and principles.  It harms your cause -- whatever your cause is.  

Yes, this is a democracy.  Yes, we are allowed to vote however we want.  Yes, I have serious concerns about the Democratic Party, and I am routinely embarrassed by Democratic leaders.  And I'm keeping a list of complaints and demands that I will deliver to my representatives in January, when we have control over the White House and Congress.

But...

I will vote for Obama in November if he is the Democratic nominee.  I may not like him much, but I will vote for him.  I'm a Democrat.  I know the stakes.  I know that Justice Ginsburg is holding on to her Supreme Court seat with every ounce of will she can muster until a Democrat sits in the Oval Office to appoint her replacement.  

(And I know that Sandra Day O'Connor fully expects the next president to appoint more women to the Supreme Court.  And I agree with her completely.)

So.  

Here's my point:

The primary season is almost over.  And tensions are still high, and the party is still divided.  It's easy to look at the supporters of the other candidate and think they're all the same.  They're all "supporters."  They're all filled with hate and vengeance.  They don't really care about democracy, or democratic values, or Democratic values.  They don't even care about their candidate.  

But it's important to remember that there's a difference.  Many of us -- most of us -- are supporters.  

And when this fight is over, we'll all be supporting Obama.



Display:


Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 59)

Accept no substitute.


by Angry Mouse on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:05:57 PM EST

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (1.00 / 8)

They chanted. They shouted. They booed.

In other words they behaved just like Obama "supporters".

Yes, what a shame indeed.


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:24:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 1)

Were any Obama "supporters" even there?


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:27:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 14)

Yes, they clapped and cheered but I did not hear them boo or interrupt speakers supporting Clinton. They behaved in a way that did not embarrass their cause and their candidate at least not at this event.
by hankg on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:36:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 15)

yes, there were actually more of us than Clinton supporters, but our candidate asked us to be respectful of the meeting process, and so we were.

and in a couple hours, I will actually be able to post video of the crowd who were cheering the results of the votes, to show exactly how many more Obama supporters were there.

Note: not trying to start a fight, I just want to get the fact straight, as someone who was in the room.


by 2501 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

FWIW (none / 0)

I had the "incident" at the New Hampshire dinner in mind.

At this particular event in DC the Obama supporters behaved very nicely as far as I can tell. And why shouldn't they - everything went their way.


Grumpy, reluctant, sore-losing, unhappy, irritable Hillary supporter for Barack Obama 2008
by DemAC on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:46:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (2.00 / 1)

Seating either state at all was in violation of the agreement, reduced the size of Barack's lead, put the magic number further away, and was generally unjust.  That's not everything going his way.  That's her getting more that she deserved, but not enough to steal what she couldn't win fairly.

History will not look kindly on her failure to honor the agreement that she helped to craft and then signed.  Obama supporters just aren't going to stoop to her level because even afterwards this nomination contest is still over.  

It has been since February even if a certain fake "professor" won't accept that.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:56:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (2.00 / 1)

Was it "generally unjust"?  I guess that depends on what you think of as "unjust".  I think "unjust" would have been us ignoring two important states during our convention.  Yes, they broke the rules.  Yes, they deserved to be punished.  Today's vote is still punishment; they've been effectively demoted from states to provinces.

Nor do I think that this is all about Hillary, any more than this general election will be all about Obama.  This is about healing wounds, and it's about trying to include everyone in the process.

You're not helping, any more than those Clinton "supporters".


by Phoenix Rising on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (2.00 / 1)

Read DemAC's comment and sig line.  That look like the pursuit of unity to you?  I was refuting the idea that everything went Obama's  way at the RBC.

It is exactly in the pursuit of unity that Barack's team even agreed to the seating of candidate number 1 from either of those states.  If people like DemAC are to be allowed to pretend like Barack didn't compromise at all in this agreement then unity moves further from reach.  People like DemAC will use it to continue to spread the idea that Barack is evil, this is all his fault, and he victimized Hillary some how.

Saying that these states have been reduced to provinces because of a one time punishment that is actually only half of the already agreed upon punishment at a time that actually conveys upon them that extra influence that motivated their rule breaking in the first place is just a smidgen more than huge hyperbole.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:01:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (none / 0)

It was pure political calculation from Axelrod.  No more, no less.

Unity is going to involve a lot more than Obama supporters telling us "it's over" since Iowa..

Senator Clinton has a valid case to bring to the Credentials Committee, not a handout from any "magnanimous" Obama campaign looking to take the gift candidates and run.


by dembluestates on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:41:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (2.00 / 1)

see how that works out for ya.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:57:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (2.00 / 1)

Where's the part where I said it's been over since Iowa?

Did Barack wind up staying 41 delegates away from winning with 2026 delegates or did he end up with a slightly smaller lead and a magic number that is further away?  This isn't about your attempts to cling to your anger and find a way to act as if it's all Obama's fault.  It's about reality and the definition of compromise.  He did not get the absolute best optimal result for his campaign and neither did she.  That is not a matter of opinion.  You are mistaken.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:04:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (none / 0)

Clinton fields her "valid case" and still loses.

Yeah, that's brilliant.  

"Go team!  It's not about me at all!"


"The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."
by AK Democrat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:42:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (none / 0)

Still promoting the absurd idea that Obama can't call himself a professor? The University of Chicago, where he has taught, disagrees with you.


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 08:14:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (none / 0)

No. I'm an Obama supporter.  I know that he was a professor of exactly the best subject to make him ideally qualified to succeed King George.

That was actually an inside thing with someone else that was reading the thread last night.  I had forgotten about that tired old crap people tried to throw at our nominee.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:47:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FWIW (2.00 / 1)

wait, which incident in NH? do you mean the two guys with the "iron my shirt" signs? they weren't Obama supporters, they were put up to it by some DJs who are probably right-wingers


by 2501 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, they were there (2.00 / 3)

There were Obama supporters but not "supporters", judging by crowd reaction anyway.  It was liveblogged over at the Great Orange Satan(tm) and quite a few Obama supporters were evidently in attendence.

The behavior of some of the Clinton "supporters" really was pretty bad.  I prefer to think they really were Republican plants.


by protothad on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:28:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, they were there (none / 0)

I wish that I could believe they were plants.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no way to be certain... (none / 0)

so I prefer to think my fellow dems would behave better than that.  Leave me my harmless fantasies... they help me make it through my day.  :-/


by protothad on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:16:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is no way to be certain... (none / 0)

vegetables are plants I guess.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:56:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, they were there (none / 0)

I suppose it's easier to blame Republicans for disunity rather than acknowledging there are real Democrats out there who are genuinely disaffected with the party.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:04:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, they were there (none / 0)

It is one thing to be upset with your party (I've been plenty of times), it is quite something else to behave like a lout.  You should hope that some of those people were Republican operatives, otherwise it reflects poorly on Clinton (just as it reflects poorly on Obama when his supporters misbehave).

I fully understand that many Clinton supporters are upset with the Dem party, and I don't discount their reasons out of hand... but you don't address those issues with violent outbursts and by supporting neocons.  That actually undermines their own supposed goals.


by protothad on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:14:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, they were there (none / 0)

There was a contest.

We have a winner.

What, exactly, is disaffecting about that?

Either you're a Dem or you're not--I was, as a member of the USAF during the 90s, and let me tell you I carried much water for William Jefferson and his wife.  

It is unconscionable to me that anyone could be so "disaffected" considering the alternative--considering that, by HRC own admission, she and Obama are 95% the same on policy.

Considering the specter of a John McCain presidency.

I don't get it.


"The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."
by AK Democrat on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:49:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (1.00 / 1)

they were busy making more "Iron My Shirts Bitch" t-shirts...


by trytobereal on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

You do know that those two guys work for a Boston radio station, right?


by ProgressiveDL on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:20:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you know which Boston station? (none / 0)

I live near Boston and would love to give the station hell.

By the way, all the Boston stations are right-wing, even the sports station.  Air America died from lack of corporate advertizers.


by Garret on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:18:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Do you know which Boston station? (none / 0)

I know...I used to live in Foxboro and I got so angry about WEEI sometimes.  I was often able to get the Providence radio station on FM...The Score?  I think that might be what it was called, but I forget the number.  

Anyway, the station those guys were from is WBCN 104.1 FM.  My favorite part is that when one of them was arrested, he said his name was Hugh Jas.  LOL  And no one suspected it might be a prank??


by ProgressiveDL on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:11:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

Those idiots were republicans.  Perhaps you should try and heed the wisdom that is your signature.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 02:00:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Little help here (none / 0)

I didn't try to troll rate anyone on this diary, I was actually handing out some mojo.  It's too easy to get the wrong button though and this one tr'd.  I've tried to change it but it doesn't take.  Isn't it normal to be able to change a rating?  


by Sun Dog on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:33:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Little help here (2.00 / 3)

I think that once you rate a comment you can only change your rating to a 0, 1 or 2...you cannot go back to 'none'


by Kysen on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:39:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ahh, thank you (none / 0)


by Sun Dog on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:38:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 2)

actually, Obama supporters did not boo or hiss a single time. the one and only loud negative reaction from Obama supporters was when Harold Ickes tried to insert "questions" for someone who was no longer there into the end of the first session, and then continued to speak after the chair ruled him out of order.


by 2501 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

Try again.  No one speaking for a Clinton position got booed.  Obama supporters allowed them to speak unmolested.  


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:46:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

Liar.


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (1.00 / 7)

First the way you think is more like Obama supporters. I don't love clinton. I don't love democrats. I don't hate republicans or Obama. I want some stuff happen in this nation and I vote for whomever that promised me the things I want and I can see him/her fit to do what he/she promissed. The reason why I will vote McCain is because I think he would do better than Obama. Obama is not promissing any progressive reform so I have to assume that he would maintain status que. McCain on the other hand has been fighting for years with mixed success to cut wall street money out of washington.

I Posted another comment why I am voting for McCain and what can Obama do to chagne that but I am insulted if you think it is becuase of personal hate. I am just weighting the two on every issue that matters to me and Obama is losing. I would not vote for Obama just becasue he is democratic nominee. He should earn it and this type of diaries won't have any effect.


by navid on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:48:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wait a minute. (2.00 / 2)

Are you saying McCain is more progressive than Obama?

I don't think Obama is especially progressive, but certainly more than McCain.


by Angry Mouse on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:04:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a minute. (1.00 / 2)

I don't think McCain is more progressive than Obama but I think Obama will maintain the status cuo. He might try to pull us out of Iraq but when I look at his site and his press releaases and everything else I am pretty sure that he would leave Iraq in a civil war which wouldn't be resolved in Decades.

As far as everything else McCain is going to cut wall street money from washington. Obama is going to appoint liberal judges. I want the first thing more.


by navid on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Iraq is in a civil war (2.00 / 1)

Would you rather have us stay there with McCain for eight years and go through a dozen cycles of truces and outbreaks of further violence while we spend borrowed money on it and destroy the lives of some of our best and brightest young people?  How many more veterans will come home tortured by their broken bodies and horrible memories?  For what exactly?  To save people?  Which people?  We can save someone this week but by occupying Iraq we guarantee that their country will be at war in one form or another for the entire time we're there.  

Make no mistake, Iraq is not stable right now.  It won't be stable in ten years of us bleeding our treasury into it either.  We can help people in that region and we can have positive influence.  But not by occupying countries.  Ever.  That's not who we are.  We would have to crush that nation into submission to accomplish what the Bush fantasy was and then we'd be at war with the rest of the region.  


by Sun Dog on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a minute. (1.60 / 5)

"McCain is going to cut wall street money from washington."

You're funny!


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a minute. (1.00 / 1)

And you have never look at what the candidates History of accomplishment. McCain is the person reponsibile for Campaign finance reform and he fought 7 years for it. He is also is a big advocate of cutting all the pork belly money. I give him credit when its due. He will and cannot cut the corporate money completely but he has proven to be a man who wants to limit it.


by navid on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a minute. (none / 0)

Campaign finance reform? Are you talking about the same McCain who has been trying to (illegally) opt out of public money for the last 5 months?
The same McCain who has more lobbyists (think pork) working for his campaign than all the other candidates combined? Of course, he's been firing some of them, but there's still Charlie Black, among others.
The same McCain, who, under the guise of cutting "wasteful" spending, voted against SCHIP?

by skohayes on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:53:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a minute. (none / 0)

Why are you here?  This a blog for electing democrats.  I won't waste my time with further arguments.  It is obvious you have a closed mind when it comes to Senator Obama.  I hope you find fellowship over at redstate.


by temptxan on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:59:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I believe you'll be surprised (2.00 / 1)

at how progressive Obama will be.  As has been mentioned all along, his stated policies are similar to Clinton's.  And if he can have bigger coattails than she would have had he'll have better chances getting them enacted.

No real progressive has been elected since Roosevelt.  (The DLC is by definition corporate, faux progressive)


by Garret on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe I should have inluded Johnson, but (none / 0)

he had Vietnam.  Hard to label progressive, even given the Great Society, but arguable.


by Garret on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:25:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe I should have inluded Johnson, but (none / 0)

I agree that we are way behind on social issues that the rest of western world. When I look at the world today I wishes we had a continental Europe (like French) empire instead of British Empire. I mean europe and japan are far ahead of us UHC, free universities , public transportation , greenhouse gas reduction and freedom issues like gay rights or abortion. Heck we are the only country in western world that still have capital punishment.

The thing is that why we are not changing any of them. Don't you think instead if persuding me your effort would have had better results if you would have send a message to Obama campaign that you want some sort of progressive politics. UHC, schools federal funding,  I assure that most of clinton supporters that want to vote McCain would switch their vote if he put UHC on table.


by navid on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:53:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe I should have inluded Johnson, but (2.00 / 1)

Thank you! But the French are massively pro-Obama (as most europeans), you know ;) By the way, this is the first time I find the issue of capital punishment mentioned. What do the candidates have to say about that? And talking about civilized behaviour, what do you think about torture? Aren't you sensitive to the fact that Obama inequivocally opposes it?
by french imp on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:06:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe I should have inluded Johnson, but (none / 0)

Well I think European are behind democrats and they despise Republican. They are pro Obama  oppose to McCain not Clinton and some of them fill good about the first black leader in the western world. I think that was a main factor in latte sipping liberal votes for Obama. I myself would have voted Obama to prove myself not racist a while ago.

As for torture and capital punishment, They are not at the top of my list. I think gay rights, abortion, capital punishment and lots of other issues would be resolved if we resolve two things. UHC and labour rules. Those issues would not be resolved untill average poeple have more time for recreation and education. I think we have to reduce working hours during the year and also create a sence of security in the society. That's why this issues is minor to me compare to UHC and labour lows.


by navid on Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 03:39:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I believe you'll be surprised (none / 0)

You see the thing is those little difference like mandate or the small differences that his greenhouse gas plan has make huge differnce in the outcome. Actually the similarity of his plan with clinton is one of my concerns. I don't want his failure (specialy in UHC) set us back for another decade. When he shows some solid plans that would work then I would vote for him. I cannot hope base on a dream or a hope that he would become more progressive. I should see his plan on the table


by navid on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 03:32:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait a minute. (none / 0)

McCain IS the status "cuo." Look it up.

Dumbo


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:41:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 2)

Navid,
  How naive are you?  Do you think that we are electing an enlightened monarch that will bring about the needed changes in our country and world?
  My dear friend, consider the baggage that necessarily comes along with the party in power.  Does anyone think that moron from Texas actually is calling the shots?  Of course not.  It's the baggage that comes with the party that determines the course of our country.  Look at McCain's recent statements about his choices for the Supreme Court -Roberts, Alito clones?  Our children will be living with the ramifications of those confirmations.
  Don't kid yourself.  There is an enormous gulf between the administration of the Republicans under McCain and that under the Democrats and Obama or Clinton (now Obama).  If you were even considering Clinton before, your newfound choice of McCain makes no rationale sense.
When I gave food to the poor they called me a Saint. When I asked why the poor were hungry they called me a communist.- Dom Helder Camera
by kentuckydave on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

How naive are you to judge people like that.

Well I am a heartless Mathematician. I weight issues and Supreme court has its weight in my decision. I know that I cannot get all that I want so I am going in the direction that I would get the most and the direction is not Obama.

By the way you are using republican tactics you know. Scaring me from big scary republicans and their children eating supreme court judges won't going to help. Obama should offer something that tips the balance.


by navid on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:47:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 4)

Well if you are a mathematician you are 50x smarter than I am but I just don't see how you can even compare the downstream effects like a NLRB that rolls back 70 years of interpretations of the national labor relations act, or an EPA that allows mountain top removal in my state like they did under Nixon, or a tax system and war that both enriches the few and bankrupts our national treasury and chokes our ability to invest in our communities while giving corporations linked to the Pentagon blank checks.

Explain to me Navid how the PERSONAL philosophical differences somehow matter when we KNOW that the administrations that come with the parties could not be more different than night and day.  Imagine an EPA led by someone concerned about the environment and not someone concerned with the restrictions our environmental laws place on businesses?  It's called the difference between a republican and democratic administration.  There's a reason why environmental PACs give to Dems.  Of course this is just one of countless examples.  What are your concerns for the future?  What corrections do you think need to be made?

I write this as a naive Nader voter in 2000.  


When I gave food to the poor they called me a Saint. When I asked why the poor were hungry they called me a communist.- Dom Helder Camera
by kentuckydave on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:57:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 1)

Well if you are a mathematician you are 50x smarter than I am...

The fact that he is willing to vote for McSame proves your above statement wrong (even if you voted for Nader!).  ;)


by Kysen on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:09:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 1)

LOL.  Does the Ky refer to my bluegrass state?


When I gave food to the poor they called me a Saint. When I asked why the poor were hungry they called me a communist.- Dom Helder Camera
by kentuckydave on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:17:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

heh..nope, my name is Kysen.
My parents were hippies....they liked the sound of it. lol
by Kysen on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 09:41:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

My problem is that I don't see him doing anything. I look at his policies regarding health care, environment, Iraq and I see disaster in most of them and status quo in others. He will fail and I don't want that failure be associated with democrats.

1. His health care plan, if you don’t want to go through the numbers and scientific studies. Read the history of UHC in continental Europe in 60’s 70’s and 80's. It will fail miserably. The problem is that I also factor in the chance of losing UHC for a very long time as a result of his failure.

2. look at his greenhouse gas reduction plan. It won't achieve anything. I see slight differences between voting for him and someone that who don't care at all the differences is not big.

3. Iraq, the way he purposed it originally leave in 60 days. We would have leaved behind a civil war which would destabilize the region for more than a decade. I remember him saying that we would remain until 2009 but I cannot trust him anymore. I believe he would do what political pressure would force him to do which is withdrawing fast. I was opposed to Iraq was from the beginning but now we are in there and we cannot just leave and tell Iraqis to take over. Clinton could have ended it. McCain would maintain status quo. Obama would screw Iraqi’s royally there while bring back American troops to their safe home. I cannot and will not accept that. We made the mess and we should fix it.

So after all this I get nothing from Obama. Now comes judgment and personality. Obama showed today that he would throw votes under the bus for his again and he showed his stupidity because the nomination was his anyway. How is that for judgment and character?

I lost my hope for any meaningful reform after NC/IN. I am no fan of Clinton but At least I could have get UHC. Now when that is gone I am going to get the next best thing. I am going to support McCain and instead demand him to do the campaign finance reform and the educational reform (voucher system).

I am getting deeply depressed when I compare America to Europe. We are far behind because we waste our time over trivial matters. I read the political history of France and Sweden and I cannot stress that how the campaign finance reform of McCain is going to be effective in changing things in Washington over the next decade. I am happy at least that I am going to get that. I am hoping to convince some others here to join me so that we could pressure Obama to put a UHC on the table. I have said before that If Obama do it then I would vote for him


by navid on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:36:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

Come on Navid, neither Obama nor Clinton's health care plans solve the problem (Edwards my original candidate's didn't either).  The problem as I see it are the bloodsucking profiteers of what should be an altruistic system.  How would our schools look if education was managed completely by for profit entities--scary.
  I'm unequivocal in my support of HB 676-Single Payer bill but, obviously, that difference with Obama can't justify voting Repug.  
  Iraq?  Our presence is fueling the insurgency Navid.  The reconstruction of Iraq has to be a collaborative effort lead by the UN.  That is the only way that the Iraqis will trust that it isn't the imperialistic ambitions of our corporations driving us.  Kerry in 2004 was clear about the need for the UN and I think Obama is presenting the same picture.  None of us on this side of the fence want to leave those poor people in chaos.  We actually care about the 500,000 human brothers and sisters who paid for the hubris of our leaders and the cowardice and laziness of our fellow citizens.
  As for campaign finance reform, how do you reconcile McCain opting out of public funding after accepting public funding as collateral for his primary campaign's loan?  
  The more I write this the more I think you are just fucking with me and wasting my time.  
When I gave food to the poor they called me a Saint. When I asked why the poor were hungry they called me a communist.- Dom Helder Camera
by kentuckydave on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:42:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

About health care, where I based my opinion on exports analysis of both plans and the History of UHC in Europe so please argue with them.
Now to Iraq/Well, my name Navid is Persian. I am from Iran (from my father side) and I have lived in the border of Iraq and Iran during the summers all through my high school. I can fully explain in detail why you are wrong but that would take a complete diary. I would write the diary whenever I have enough credit on MYDD to do so.
That said you should notice that I fear McCain would attack Iran and how can I live with myself if he do it (although I think the economy makes it impossible for him to do so), I am a socialist and I am way to the left and I actually volunteered for both Gore and Kerry. The way I see it, if someone like me want to vote McCain then we are in serious trouble. I hopelessly wish for the past month that Obama would do something that I can justify voting for him but he blow every chance he got.  I still have my hopes but right now I would vote down the tickets democrats with McCain on top.

by navid on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 01:32:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 1)

I'm having trouble following your thought process. You think McCain might bomb your region of birth, and you'd rather that he not, but you can't think of a good reason not to vote for him?


by Barrett Brown on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:06:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

Navid is concerned about us. VERY concerned. We should listen. For our own sakes.

For sure.


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

McCain has signed on 110% to Bush' economic policies. Phil Gramm his chief economic advisor has been a shill for every bad actor on Wall St. from Enron to the mortgage bankers. His campaign is run by a collection of lobbyists that make Mark Penn look like a choir boy.

Larry Kudlow and all his Club for Growth Wall street buddies are counting on McCain to continue Bush's war on America's middle class and they are very public about it. They refer to the Democratic opposition as HillBama because they see no difference between their economic policies but are loving McCains everything for the rich policies.

McCain is a 'maverick' and looking to rein in Wall Street like GWB is a real cowboy. If you believe that I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.


by hankg on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

That's a defensible position (voting for McCain) if you are a moderate or centrist and you see McCain as closer to you on some issues (maybe defense and foreign policy?).


by ProgressiveDL on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (none / 0)

Uprated for troll ratings abuse.  If you disagree with an opinion say why.  There is no personal attack in this comment and it's hence unfit for a troll rate.  


2004 swing state margins: PA-2%, OH-2%, IA-1%, WI-0.5%, MI-3%, FL-5%, NM-1%; Alienating 50% of the party is a luxury we can't afford.
by BPK80 on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:06:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Notice all the troll rates (none / 0)

You made a calm statement (and not insulting to anyone or any candidate) about why your decision to vote for McCain was a rational one and provided evidence supporting your claim.  Around here, that makes you a troll.

This is not the Democratic party that I thought I supported for 30 years.  I'm beginning to think I have to do like Obama - quit an organization that I have supported for decades but appears to be increasingly cancerous.  


by lombard on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 11:44:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Notice all the troll rates (none / 0)

So Democrats are supposed to support Republicans and the Republican candidate?

Hmmmm.

I guess that's been true of the last 20 years. But it doesn't have to be that way. And won't be any more.

C'mon. Man up.


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:45:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Democrats shouldn't have to do anything (none / 0)

to prove that they can call themselves Democrats.  That is the point.


by lombard on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:50:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

asdf (2.00 / 2)

supporters versus partisans.


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:52:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 9)

Thank you for the excellent diary.  I am certain that 90%+ of the hate and vitriol on both sides comes from some tiny fraction of each candidate's supporters.  When I went to my precinct convention in Texas, our group was split about 50-50 between Obama and Clinton.  But, everyone got along well, things ran smoothly, and we even had a good discussion about healthcare, and I was proud to be a Democrat.  I've never yet met a Clinton supporter in real life who I couldn't have a good conversation with.  We should always keep in mind that a relatively insignificant few anonymous posters on the internet do not represent either candidate.


John McCain vows to overturn Roe
by soccerandpolitics on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:20:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wish I could mojo you twice (2.00 / 1)

This is little bit of common sense seems to be lost on many people in the interweb echo chamber.


by protothad on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips for a real supporter. (2.00 / 1)

Excellent diary, Angry Mouse. You're a great person and great Democrat, as is your candidate, Senator Clinton.  I have no doubt that she will help unify the party.


by TomP on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:35:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hear here (2.00 / 13)

excellent diary.


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:06:20 PM EST

Hear, hear! (2.00 / 2)

Excellent diary.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:36:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent diary. (2.00 / 21)

My allegiance to progressive causes does not begin and end with one candidate. The goal's to get a D in the White House in November. Whether that's my preferred D or not, a D is a D and not an R.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:08:39 PM EST

Thank you. And... (2.00 / 21)

since we're Democrats, we are used to seeing our first choice candidate lose in the primaries.  Heck, we're used to disappointment in general.

But I'll be damned if I see President McCain stumbling around the Oval Office.


by Angry Mouse on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you. And... (2.00 / 6)

Don't be so harsh.  I'm sure President Obama will invite him up from the Hill for a meeting sometime during his eight years in the Oval.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:36:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right answer, Mouse (2.00 / 7)

Every last one of us Obama supporters would do the same if our positions were reversed.  McCain must not win, at any cost.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:38:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right answer, Mouse (2.00 / 3)

Well, I won't say every single one.  But I think every supporter on both sides except those at the far edge of the bell-curve would do so.


New Mexico politics from the local perspective.
by fbihop on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:03:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right answer, Mouse (1.50 / 2)

I think I can safely assert that no Obama supporter would ever vote for McCain or Nader.


by ReillyDiefenbach on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:11:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right answer, Mouse (none / 0)

You must've missed all the Kossacks saying they'd never support Clinton back around the beginning of the year, and would vote third party.


by therealdeal on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:20:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

RE: Obama supporters voting third party (none / 0)

The poster was obviously incorrect when he said NO Obama supporters would vote McCain or Nader.

But a while back they did a poll on both Obama and Clinton supporters. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a lot more Clinton suppers said they would NOT vote Democrat if the other candidate won.


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:56:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Right answer, Mouse (none / 0)

I hate to say it, but this campaign has tarnished my view of both Clintons forever. I would not vote for her in the GE, as bad behavior and blind ambition should not be rewarded. And I say this as someone who could have easily supported her as of December 2007.

On the other hand, it would take a serious hot mess to get me to ever vote for a Republican or a narcissistic spoiler like Nader.

I'm not the rule. But I'm not alone.


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:50:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton Supporters (none / 0)

If Obama is the nominee, I'll make up my mind on November 4th.


by Check077 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:08:54 PM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 10)

Why would you ever chose to hobble Hillary Clinton's noble work in the Senate with a President McCain?

If you can't vote for Obama for Obama's sake then, please, do it for Hillary's.


by davisb on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Supporters (none / 0)

coming from an Obama supporter that's just got to be rich sarcasm 'noble work in the Senate'!!! what a laugh. she's been derided since day one by the obama camp for having NOT done any noble work in the senate ----  now this crap. save it. she doesn't deserve such false kudos from the supporters that have distorted her life-long noble work for the DEM party. it'll take more than some disingenuous flattery to reunite the DEM party.


by swissffun on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 06:52:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Supporters (none / 0)

Not sure what you're talking about as I've never "derided" Clinton's work in the Senate, and I wasn't being disingenuous.

Hillary Clinton will continue to be a Senator, and having a Democratic President to sign her legislation would be a big boon to the work she does there.  Why would any Clinton supporter want to screw that up for her?

Don't let your hatred for all things Obama burn your favorite politician.


by davisb on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Supporters (1.00 / 1)

OK. Look at it this way.

President McCain will get in the way of Hillary's ruthless ambition and ego. You wouldn't want that to happen...would you?


by Rationalisto on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 5)

Given how completely diametrically opposite Obama's (and Clinton's) positions are from McCain's, I cannot imagine for the life of me what would take that long to figure out....


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:41:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Supporters (none / 0)

Exactly. Are you voting for the name or the positions that person takes?


New Mexico politics from the local perspective.
by fbihop on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:03:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You nailed it. (2.00 / 16)

I have the utmost respect for Clinton Supporters.

Clinton 'supporters' (and, for that matter, Obama 'supporters') are worthless...nothing more than trolls.

Good on ya.


by Kysen on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:10:38 PM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters vs. (2.00 / 10)

AM, I am so glad that you cross-posted this diary here. amen, and you know that I would feel the same way if the roles were reversed.


by blue jersey mom on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:11:03 PM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 15)

Agreed. We know the vast majority of Clinton supporters don't feel this way, and the people being jerks in and outside the meeting today don't represent Senator Clinton or her real supporters, like the diarist. Please keep that in mind when you're reading the hate-filled invective that's sure to be thrown around.


Hooray for John McCain!
by ragekage on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:11:14 PM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 6)

Thanks for the post AM.


by barath on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:19:26 PM EST

Re: (2.00 / 12)

Rec'd.  My mother is a Clinton supporter.  She has nothing in common with the "supporters" on display today.


by rfahey22 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:19:31 PM EST

Clinton Supporters (2.00 / 6)

Fine Diary. Highly recomended!


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:22:28 PM EST

Yup (2.00 / 12)

I'm really glad I've managed (somehow) to retain my ability to rec, and I wish I could give this diary a thousand recs.

As Democrats, we have much more in common than we have in opposition to one another. So much is at stake this fall - the White House, of course, but also a workable Senate majority, a House supermajority, statehouses and state legislatures all over the country. We have no time to waste with internecine squabbles, and I'm damned proud to be marching alongside angry mouse to get the job done!


Ceci n'est pas une <<snark>>
by ipsos on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:24:39 PM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters vs. (2.00 / 4)

Recced!  Good diary!  


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:26:57 PM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters vs. (2.00 / 3)

If I could rec. I would.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Hillary's husband
by venician on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Support (none / 0)

hmmm tastes like candy.


"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."
by alyssa chaos on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:34:54 PM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters vs. Clinton (2.00 / 4)

I agree.

Father P. does not represent Obama supporters.
Harriet C. does not represent Clinton supporters.


by Benjaminomeara on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:38:13 PM EST

Thank you for reminding me (2.00 / 5)

That most Clinton supporters are just passionate, and not motivated by something darker. I was sitting pretty close to that woman at the RBC meeting, and several other people who were just being horrible.

It seemed to me, though, that the majority of the people who were actually given the 50 spaces reserved for the Clinton campaign were standing and applauding at the end of the meeting, even if they didn't get what they hoped for.


by 2501 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:43:45 PM EST

Praise for Unity. (2.00 / 12)

I am a deeply committed Hillary supporter, not "supporter". I am saddened that she did not win the nomination as I believe she would have made a slightly better President than Obama. However, it is what it is and I am a realist. He is a huge improvement over W. and we simply cannot let McCain triumph in the fall.

Therefore, I will be voting D in the fall. :)


by MJJLWolf on Sat May 31, 2008 at 09:53:39 PM EST

Clinton WON today (2.00 / 2)

Well, not the nomination. BTW, I am an avid Obama supporter.. some would say "supporter"

Look, here's the deal. Without getting into all of the details as to why they should or should not be seated, I'll stick to a basic fact.

All of the candidates went into the election knowing and accepting that Florida and Michigan would not count.

The Clinton camp was (is) hopelessly behind and they managed to have the game changed late in the 4th quarter. She DID gain delegates that she wasn't even supposed to have in the first place.

And yet, that's not enough. I think with some "supporters" nothing will be enough and fairness can only be achieved if Hillary wins.

You know, sometimes your guy/gal just doesn't win. I'm a 49ers fan so I know what disappointment is all about. Obviously this is more important than football but the same principle applies.

Barack Obama is going to have NO problem beating McCain. He's going to make a fantastic President. I've already pledged I will "hold my nose" and vote for Clinton if need be.

It's time we all put on the same color jersey.  


Gobama!
by USArmyParatrooper on Sat May 31, 2008 at 10:48:45 PM EST

:-) Awesome! (2.00 / 3)

Rec'd highly. This diary is right on the spot.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sat May 31, 2008 at 11:43:29 PM EST

Unity, it's whats for dinner (2.00 / 1)

Great Diary! Let's make sure diaries like this stay on the Rec list, not the divisive drivel that has been dominating since February.


John McCain: Four More Years of Failure.
by dannybauder on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 12:13:51 AM EST

Re: Clinton Supporters vs. (none / 0)

Just have to toss out a quick Larry Sinclair comment.

I saw his video and I will have to say that if I were going to cheat on my wife and put my political career at risk, it would certainly be with someone a hell of a lot better looking than that guy.  


by Rick in Eugene on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 04:50:56 AM EST

Speak for yourself! I will not vote for Obama (1.50 / 2)

under any circumstances and it all started with New Hampshire for me, when Obama along with Kucinich started to imply that the Clintons had stolen the primary by citing differences in the exit polls and the results and Kucinich asking and paying for a recount which without a doubt was paid for by the Obama team because Kucinich had no funds in the thousands of dollars to spare.

North Carolina was a disgrace with the appearance of the Obama NC campaign worker's memo about example to use in implying racism from the Clintons, lifelong civil rights fighters simply to peel away the AA votes from her.

Lastly and my definitive reason why I could never vote for him in good conscience after seeing the travesty of the Texas caucuses. I think as a result, that Obama is the illegitimate winner of the primaries and caucuses confirmed by this travesty of justice against voters today by the Party! No, I will not endorse a corrupt party and their handpicked brokered behind closed doors candidate!


by suzieg on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 05:32:43 AM EST

Re: About MyDD (none / 0)

MyDD is a group blog designed to discuss campaigns, the progressive movement, and political power.
...
* Users who are bashing or attacking any other user on the site, including authors of diaries and frontpage postings, will be banned. Candidates and politicians are fair game (but that doesn't mean you can use inflammatory language against candidates). emphasis added
...
* Users who are excessively bashing the Democratic Party, or being Republican trolls, will be banned.

It's about time for those who have expressed the opinion that they are not going to vote for the  Democratic Party nominee and who have excessively bashed the Democratic Party to either voluntarily leave or perhaps even be banned, in order to allow  MyDD to return to its stated goals. There are ample meeting places on the Web for the type of diatribe and invective that has infested this place in violation of its rules and in direct conflict with its stated goals.

The primaries are over for all practical purposes.

Let's concentrate on winning the November elections for Democrats and put an end - finally - to the bitterness.


by xdem on Sun Jun 01, 2008 at 10:52:29 AM EST
[